From: Hans Mayer (mayer@gmd.de) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-23 21:57:32 PST In <23.03.92.161425.216@cogsci.cog.jhu.edu> wjb@cogsci.cog.jhu.edu (Bill Bogstad) writes: [ ...] >By the way, it was suggested to me in private email that BSDI plans to >support the standard 386 ABI in their first non-Beta release sometime this >summer. Would anybody care to confirm or deny this rumor? If true this >would (IMHO) make BSDI much more interesting to business users. In their info file under FAQ: What about binary compatibility? The production system is planned to support SCO UNIX V.3.3 binaries. This will enable access to a large body of third party packages. To add my $0.02: A lot of people complain about the price of BSD/386. How about that: order a tape from FSF containing gcc and utilities, the net-2 tape from CSRG, another one from MIT with X11R5 core dist and one containing TeX, and you'll end up somewhere around $500. And you don't have a running system. Because you don't have to pay for ftp access and disk storage doesn't mean everything is free. I don't know how restrictive their licence is but I think I can live with that. -Hans -- Hans J. Mayer, mayer@gmdzi.gmd.de (or hmayer@venus.darmstadt.gmd.de) German National Research Center for Computer Science (GMD) Message 42 in thread From: Richard Foulk (richard@pegasus.com) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-24 17:36:34 PST > >A lot of people complain about the price of BSD/386. How about that: order >a tape from FSF containing gcc and utilities, the net-2 tape from CSRG, another >one from MIT with X11R5 core dist and one containing TeX, and you'll end up >somewhere around $500. And you don't have a running system. Because you don't >have to pay for ftp access and disk storage doesn't mean everything is free. > If you can't afford the donations to FSF and MIT then you don't have to pay them. All this stuff is available many other places, and the costs of getting them are generally much less than the donations. And when you have the freeware code, you're permitted to give it away to others all you want. No encumberances like BSD/386. Fix, add, embellish, and pass it on -- something that a commercial package doesn't promote nearly as readily. -- Richard Foulkrichard@pegasus.com Message 43 in thread From: Hans Mayer (mayer@gmd.de) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-24 20:52:54 PST In <1992Mar25.013634.10481@pegasus.com> richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) writes: >If you can't afford the donations to FSF and MIT then you don't have >to pay them. All this stuff is available many other places, and the >costs of getting them are generally much less than the donations. I don't think it's a donation (well, maybe part of it). It is typically the cost of the tape, handling (copying, mailing) and other resources (computer time, electricity, etc). >And when you have the freeware code, you're permitted to give it away to >others all you want. No encumberances like BSD/386. Fix, add, embellish, >and pass it on -- something that a commercial package doesn't promote >nearly as readily. I would guess that the bundled freeware packages are freely redistributable. If this isn't the case I guess they would not be permitted to include the software. It is the value added they are holding copyright on (like SCSI drivers and missing kernel modules) and you are not allowed to redistribute them. But then, I don't have their software and don't know how restrictive their licence is. -- Hans J. Mayer, mayer@gmdzi.gmd.de (or hmayer@venus.darmstadt.gmd.de) German National Research Center for Computer Science (GMD) Message 44 in thread From: Richard Foulk (richard@pegasus.com) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-23 18:45:02 PST > [...] And look at all the tools that the BSDI >folks are putting in their release. The attitude a lot of people on >this list seem to have is to avoid BSDI. I've seen the product run, >and its impressive. Its got most, if not all, the GNU tools, it runs >very fast X11R5, the graphics are great, you have support, etc. I was leaning towards BSDI until 386BSD became available. Since neither seems really ready yet I'm going to wait and see. Trading overlords, BSDI for AT&T, sounds positive on the surface. And the price is a definite improvement. But having source code that's freely redistributable is *so* enticing. No worries about what one company will decide to do tomorrow. And then there's support. The guys at BSDI are very capable. But I've *never* seen commercial software support that was as good as that available from the net when the package was popular enough, and 386BSD looks like it will break records there. Commercial software is driven by different concerns. Support for less popular hardware (as an example) is understandably neglected, there's only so much manpower available. With the source code you may be able to build support yourself. With unencumbered source code you're much more likely to find help from someone else with a similar need. If BSDI's package becomes a wild success and their control over the source code isn't too overbearing, then they may be the best way to go. At the moment I'm sceptical. BSDI is taking a long list of freeware packages, porting them, and making them available in a nice (proprietary) package. The user will both gain and give up capabilities investing in them. -- Richard Foulkrichard@pegasus.com Message 45 in thread From: Per Lindqvist (pgd@compuram.bbt.se) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-25 09:47:09 PST rowe@cme.nist.gov (Walter Rowe) writes: : I can understand the home-hacker being more interested in 386BSD than : in BSDI. Its more likely to have problems to solve, which will give : the opportunity to hack around and tinker with the kernel. But if you : want something which is going to be stable and allow you to get real : work done (not that you can't get real work done with 386BSD -- I : haven't used it myself), then $1000 seems quite reasonable given all : the things that come with BSDI. It all boils down to $$$'s. If you give me $1000, I would be happy to spend them on BSDI's BSD/386. Otherwise if you are working on a place, and somehow persude your company to buy BSD/386, you also get it. (fat chance. They rather buy SCO or something). Now, if you are a student, you probably don't have $1000 to spare, so where are you going to get them from? Your parents? Therefore it is not very hard to understand that there is a need for a free unix. But there is also a need for support. This is where BSDI comes into the picture. A company would never depend on a "free" unix. They rather pay for it, and have someone to call when things go wrong. That is much cheaper than hire someone to hold it together. -- Per Lindqvist Internet: pgd@compuram.bbt.se Fidonet: Per Lindqvist @ 2:201/332 Message 46 in thread From: Karl Lehenbauer (karl@NeoSoft.com) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-04-02 21:32:34 PST In article <1992Mar25.174709.10118@compuram.bbt.se> pgd@compuram.bbt.se (Per Lindqvist) writes: >A company would never depend on a "free" unix. They rather >pay for it, and have someone to call when things go wrong. That is >much cheaper than hire someone to hold it together. I don't know. 386BSD isn't Minix, it's pretty much BSD 4.3. A few more weeks of bug fixing, driver donations and so forth and it'll be in pretty great shape. Not only do I predict that companies will provide support for a free Unix for a fee, I know of one. NeoSoft will consult with people on 386BSD. Call 713-438-4964 8-5 M-F for details. -- -- Email info@NeoSoft.com for info on getting Internet access. "Trust me. I know what I'm doing." -- Sledge Hammer Message 47 in thread From: Peter da Silva (peter@ferranti.com) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-25 15:09:17 PST In article rowe@cme.nist.gov (Walter Rowe) writes: > So you're saying you'd rather buy the OS without the source code than > one with it given they are the same price? Why? This is like saying > that you'd prefer to take delivery of a car without all the service > manuals than one with them. No, it's a legitimate thing. He's saying he'd rather buy a car that runs on gasoline than one that runs on alcohol and comes with all the design docs. Later on when you can buy alcohol at any gas station the choices change. Right now all the third-party support is for System V. > I can understand the home-hacker being more interested in 386BSD than > in BSDI. 386BSD is a kit-car that runs on electricity... :-> -- -- Peter da Silva, Ferranti International Controls Corporation -- Sugar Land, TX 77487-5012; +1 713 274 5180 -- "Have you hugged your wolf today?" Message 48 in thread From: Michael Bryan (michael@resonex.com) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-13 15:35:18 PST In article <13.03.92.130104.210@cogsci.cog.jhu.edu> wjb@cogsci.cog.jhu.edu (Bill Bogstad) writes: >distributable. I can get a number of UNIX products with most of the >festures of BSDI for around $1000. The only thing that BSDI has is source >code. My impression of the marketplace is that there are people who just >want turn-key solutions for whom source code is irrelevant; and "hackers" >who want source code, but probably don't want to pay significant money for >service. Obviously BSDI sees the market differently. May the best business >plan win. One additional point to keep in mind is the "binary-only" license that BSDI provides for about $250. (That's a half-remembered figure, it may be somewhat off.) Currently, I don't think they will ship a binary-only tape, but do allow you to put the binaries on multiple machines for this lower price. I would hope that they will soon provide such a thing directly, so that you don't have to buy an initial $995 source tape as well... >>Case in point, look at the current non-responsiveness from the e-mail >>account listed in the 386BSD announcement. ... > >How soon we forget. When BSDI's 386/BSD product was first made >public, non-responsiveness is exactly what people got when they tried to >e-mail for more information. Yup, my fault for suggesting otherwise. Although I'd still bet that in 6 months you will still get somewhat faster support from BSDI than you do from the volunteer group working on 386BSD. It won't be a gargantuan difference, but it will probably be enough that some companies will be willing to pay for a "commercial" product. Like it or not, business admins tend to favor something that is available commercially, as opposed to something like 386BSD. It gives them a stronger feeling of comfort in regards to the stability of the product, even though it is possible that a commercial product might be *less* stable. Given that, I think BSDI has a fair chance of succeeding. -- Michael Bryan michael@resonex.com This offer law where prohibited by void. Message 49 in thread From: Mark Frost (mfrost@xtort.eng.pyramid.com) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-15 23:50:52 PST In article <1992Mar13.133142.7830@resonex.com> michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan) writes: >In article <13.03.92.130104.210@cogsci.cog.jhu.edu> wjb@cogsci.cog.jhu.edu (Bill Bogstad) writes: >>distributable. I can get a number of UNIX products with most of the >>festures of BSDI for around $1000. The only thing that BSDI has is source >>code. My impression of the marketplace is that there are people who just >>want turn-key solutions for whom source code is irrelevant; and "hackers" >>who want source code, but probably don't want to pay significant money for >>service. Obviously BSDI sees the market differently. May the best business >>plan win. > >One additional point to keep in mind is the "binary-only" license that >BSDI provides for about $250. (That's a half-remembered figure, it may >be somewhat off.) Currently, I don't think they will ship a binary-only >tape, but do allow you to put the binaries on multiple machines for this >lower price. I would hope that they will soon provide such a thing >directly, so that you don't have to buy an initial $995 source tape >as well... > >-- >Michael Bryan michael@resonex.com >This offer law where prohibited by void. From what I remember at UseNix, the deal is this. If you buy the source code now at the $995 introductory price, you can then get a license to distribute binaries FROM THAT SOURCE CODE to another machine for $250. At present, BSDI will not sell you a binary tape. (I believe Rob Kolstad said it would be kinda silly to do this as the product isn't even released code yet - if it breaks, there's no code for people to look at). At Usenix, Rob said that the binary only release would be a few months after the "official" release of BSD386 and would most likely be more than $250 (I think he said it would be more). -m----------- Mark "Hoek" Frost (mfrost@pyramid.com) ---mmm--------- R&D Lab Manager Group -----mmmmm------- Pyramid Technology Corporation -------mmmmmmm----- 3860 North First Street ---------mmmmmmmmm--- San Jose, California 95134 (408) 428-8163 Message 50 in thread From: Per Anders Olausson (dxper@dtek.chalmers.se) Subject: Re: 386BSD announcement Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd View this article only Date: 1992-03-18 06:16:42 PST mfrost@xtort.eng.pyramid.com (Mark Frost) writes: >From what I remember at UseNix, the deal is this. If you buy the source code >now at the $995 introductory price, you can then get a license to distribute >binaries FROM THAT SOURCE CODE to another machine for $250. At present, BSDI I think you may have drawn a wrong conclusion, which I myself did as well at first. The source license does *not* entitle you to sell any binary licenses but merely gives you the possibility to buy additional binary licenses which makes it possible for the source license holder to have the system running on several machines at the same time. The license statement does not permit you to sell those binary licenses to any third party... These additional licenses are currently priced at US$200. >will not sell you a binary tape. (I believe Rob Kolstad said it would be kind >silly to do this as the product isn't even released code yet - if it breaks, >there's no code for people to look at). At Usenix, Rob said that the binary >only release would be a few months after the "official" release of BSD386 and >would most likely be more than $250 (I think he said it would be more). According to Rob Kolstad, whom I have been pestering with email, they will make binary license only systems to user without any source licenses later this year. The cost for such a system seems to be set at US$500 but I suspect that might change (for better or worse, who knows...). These are conclusions I have drawn from discussions with Rob and from what I have seen in the current license statement but it may ofcourse be that I have misinterpreted something in which case I recommend that you speak to Rob Kolstad directly. I strongly recommend prospective buyers to read the license! pao -- -------------------------------Andrew Olausson-------------------------------- ------------------------------Systems Architect------------------------------- ----------------------------dxper@dtek.chalmers.se---------------------------- --------------------------------pao@proxxi.se---------------------------------