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From: espel@drakkar.ens.fr (Roger Espel Llima)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.sys.sgi.misc
Subject: Re: no such thing as a "general user community"
Date: 1 Apr 1997 04:44:02 GMT
Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <5hq3qi$2nr$1@nef.ens.fr>
References: <331BB7DD.28EC@net5.net> <5hn00k$dio@fido.asd.sgi.com> <333F45A6.41C67EA6@FreeBSD.org> <5hpolu$9t2@fido.asd.sgi.com>
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Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:38173 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:6526 comp.sys.sgi.misc:29564
In article <5hpolu$9t2@fido.asd.sgi.com>,
Larry McVoy <lm@slovax.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
>Because the *BSD people can't elect a leader. Let's see - the set of
>people that can't keep their own house in order are the set of people
>that are going to unify Unix? You guys are worse than the vendors at
>making Unix diverge and it is soley because of your egos.
>
>Contrast that with Linus. He works with everyone, is a nice guy,
>is reasonable, delegates all over the place, and still hasn't pissed
>anyone off. He's got millions of seats and you have millions of
>arguments.
I think you're badly oversimplifying here. The Linux camp has had its
fair share of dissent too -- or did you miss the entire GGI wars? That
was fairly loud, and until recently was still raging in comp.os.linux.*.
There are also periodic arguments about how there should/shouldn't be
raw devices, the subject was just brought up again in the kernel mailing
list. And the Linux/sparc people got their UFS driver in the kernel,
which is incompatible with the {Free,Net,Open}BSD and NeXT variants of
UFS, for which another driver exists (but is not in the main
distribution).
The one thing that has kept Linux together (as in, there have been no
loud schisms; there *have* actually been quite a few specialized forks)
is the fact that there is *one* undisputed leader, with a good ability
at getting along with people and most often making the right decisions.
But I certainly wouldn't say that he hasn't pissed off anyone.
Of course this kind of problems aren't specific to Linux, I'd say that
they are inevitable in any large project involving many people, as soon
as it's done in a "free" way. And projects forking, either in a major
way like OpenBSD from NetBSD, or in minor ways like variations on the
Linux kernel (RTLinux, ports that aren't integrated...), aren't
necessarily a bad thing either. Some will be merged, some will create
healthy competition, and those that are gratuitously incompatible will
be the least likely to survive. From what I hear, the 3 free BSD's as
well as BSD/OS are quite good at being compatible, when running on the
same hardware.
>Come on - if you expect people to follow BSD, then 3 out of the 4 BSD
>factions have to throw in the towel and go with you. You're just like
>the vendors - "sure we want to unify Unix - how about everyone else dump
>theirs and go with ours?".
I've seen FreeBSD people advise to use NetBSD many times, when people
ask about non-Intel hardware. I've heard NetBSD users say that FreeBSD
is better on the Intel platform. Reasonable people tend to get over
their little hates, if they aren't based on solid technical reasons, for
the simple reason that they sound ridiculous after a while.
>: I think we share a lot of the same goals, Larry, we've just chosen
>: different ways of reaching them.
>
>We do share the same goals. But you refuse to put the cause, that of
>having a good Unix with us in 20 years, ahead of your own personal
>agenda. That's sad. Once upon a time, BSD had a chance. By having
>multiple warring factions, you've destroyed that chance. Sad but true.
This is just plain stupid. It's well-known that the number of users of
each of the 3 free BSD alternatives is growing fast. Are you one of
those who thing the computing world is going to be taken over by
Micro$oft's pseudo-OS's and that they'll magically force them on each of
us even there are alternatives which we prefer, unless we all hail Linux
which is the only thing that might save us? Linux is here to stay, and
so is BSD, because they have enough *value* that people will keep using
them and improving them, and because there *is* a market of clueful
users for them.
Whatever marketing droids may get taught, it's not the percentage of
users, but the sheer number, that gives a project its momentum.
Roger (Linux and FreeBSD user)
--
e-mail: roger.espel.llima@pobox.com
WWW page & PGP key: http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html