Return to BSD News archive
Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!sun.sirius.com!siva.captech.com!siva.captech.com!not-for-mail From: greywolf@siva.captech.com (Greywolf) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Re: followup from censored port-i386@Netbsd.ORG Followup-To: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Date: 25 Jun 1996 11:36:58 -0700 Organization: [800]sys.admin - Capital Technologies Lines: 144 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4qpbka$bqd@siva.captech.com> References: <DERAADT.96Jun23070919@zeus.theos.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: siva.captech.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:3857 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:22175 I've watched this for SO long it has reached the height of ludicrous. I'm usually pretty silent. I try to ask intelligent questions. But I can't just stand by and watch this any more. This time, I don't care that this is inappropriate for this newsgroup: If it's not appropriate for discussion here, then where shall we discuss it? Or shall we just sweep it under the rug and pretend it hasn't happened (again)? This deserves a full address, and I'm going to give it my best shot. I've seen the emails from both sides and I've heard things from NUMEROUS sources, both for and against. You don't have to like each other to work together. But I don't understand AT ALL why such an amount of HATRED has been generated. It undermines EVERYTHING that has been attempted. And if it isn't hatred, then STOP undermining Theo's efforts. John Goerzen wrote: jgoerzen> It doesn't matter if the devel. team of NetBSD has treated you badly, jgoerzen> you owe it to the users to at least provide them with the info to get it jgoerzen> fixed! Why don't you go make that same argument to CERT? I think they owe the computing community a LOT more explanations than they are willing to give. The crackers already *know*, why not alert the USERS? If you want the info, snag the source. Next... Core once complained that Theo's behaviour was "unprofessional". Well, gosh golly gee I think I'll go cry in my beer boo hoo. Nothing is more unprofessional than the shaft that Theo got. I understand that sometimes one person will rub other people the wrong way, much in the same way that New Yorkers and Californians rub each other the wrong way. The problem isn't Theo. The problem is that there are too many people playing too many elitist games. Guess what? THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THIS! The "professionalism" which was missing sounds to me more like "elitist corporatism". If any of you have worked at large companies (been there, done that, bought the T shirt, destroyed the planet and left. NEVER again!), you know the attitude I'm talking about. If NetBSD core wants to become corporate, it should do so. But if you're not going to do it, don't pretend. It's like teaching a pig to sing: It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig. I won't deny that I have had my run-ins with Theo, and I can see where some of his approaches might seem a bit rough. He's snapped at me more than once. The last time he did, this whole conflict was the reason. But for the most part, he seems to me to have his head on tighter than a great many of us. I think he's made a lot of worthwhile contributions, and I won't dispute his claim that there are people out there trying to discredit him just because _they_ can't get along with him personally. Yet another person complained about him acting childish. I think he's been doing his best NOT to do so. He's only stepped up and pointed out a misaccreditation of written code, the pointing out of which should not have been necessary. Before someone flames me for not knowing about which I speak/write, I have news for you: I, like most of you, have been on BOTH sides of this kind of an argument, and not in the middle as I am now. So I've _been_ there, _done_ that, etc. If I am not perceiving all the details correctly, then I suggest we hash this out once and for all. Let's SETTLE it. I don't care if OpenBSD/NetBSD are split. I don't care that they go their own ways, because as I see it, unless a MAJOR MERGE happens, it's pretty much irreversible at this point. All I'm saying is that this should be settled. I've also heard some nasty rumours circulating that anyone developing NetBSD and OpenBSD at the same time does so at their own peril. What kind of bullpuckey is this? What is SO WRONG with working on both at the same time? theo> To be even more careful, I commited the fixes to the OpenBSD tree theo> without describing the security problems in the commit messages. Many theo> vendors still ship (new) operating systems with these bugs unfixed. jgoerzen> So, in other words, you are being like Microsoft and are covering up jgoerzen> mistakes. That's not how open software is supposed to be. theo> Nobody in the BSDi, FreeBSD, NetBSD, or the Linux camps have ever sent theo> me a security fix. I have sent out probably 50 pieces of mail to theo> members of other camps. That's good enough reason for me not to share that kind of information, were I in Theo's shoes.... jgoerzen> Nobody says you have to help them solve the problems. But you could jgoerzen> at least tell them what the problems are. I think this would be a good point. There's something telling me that my logic is flawed on this one, though. Judging by what I've seen and another good acquaintance with whom I have spoken, I'd say that Theo's "accusations" are right on the money, and the people about whom he is making these accusations have quite a bit to answer for. Were I to judge, that is. I'd just rather see this all settled in such a way that at the VERY least, neutrality was reached. Interestingly enough, I notice that there are people speaking out on this who aren't core. If I let myself get really malicious, I start wondering if these people who AREN'T core are nothing more than tightly knit lackeys who are wandering out and doing core's bidding. But that is rather malicious, and I intend to try to follow the axiom which advises us never to attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance, fear, or stupidity. To be honest, I prefer to look at it as either ignorance or fear. Please note: I am not explicitly defending Theo, here; rather, I am rebuking the attitude which is exhibited. It is wholly reprehensible, and without defense. I think it sucks that ANYONE should be treated this way. I have made the mistake of treating another this way -- ONCE! -- and I have been treated this way myself MANY times. Either way it is unpleasant. Why promote it? I will also say that I have a somewhat vested interest. The SPARC port has suffered greatly since the splintering. This is not to say that the current port is not good -- it is. And, I do appreciate the work that has gone into this, most especially when the esp finally worked on anything less than a SS2. At this point, I'm grateful that my IPX and SLC will run something besides SunOS. But this could have been, and may still have a chance to be, a great port. Summary: The attitude shown Theo is horrid, no matter whom it is shown. Theo could be someone else who I have watched with interest over the years. Tolerance is needed in these trying times, now more than ever. Three words in closing, folks: Get over it.