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Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.missouri.edu!vortex.cc.missouri.edu!rhys From: rhys@vortex.cc.missouri.edu (Justin "Rhys Thuryn" McNutt) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Historic Opportunity facing Free Unix (was Re: The Lai/Baker paper, benchmarks, and the world of free UNIX) Followup-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Date: 26 Apr 1996 15:53:57 GMT Organization: University of Missouri - Columbia Lines: 139 Message-ID: <4lqril$j7q@news.missouri.edu> References: <NELSON.96Apr15010553@ns.crynwr.com> <31784FD9.28AA98F6@lambert.org> <kevinbDqC0xC.99w@netcom.com> <4lkcv6$n4j@gorgias.uchicago.edu> <4ll8dq$38b@solaria.cc.gatech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vortex.cc.missouri.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.development.system:22429 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc:857 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:3537 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:3396 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:18225 comp.os.linux.advocacy:47243 Byron A Jeff (byron@cc.gatech.edu) wrote: : That's what we've all been saying. On the desktop it's all about applications. : The hardware and system software underneath is really a black box to the : average user. They wouldn't care if the engine was three gerbils running on : a wheel as long as the job gets done. Don't be so sure: "Save the gerbils enslaved by the horrible computer industry!" :) But yes. To the average user, the computer is a black box that responds to a few known inputs, like your dishwasher. To make it do X, you just do Y. Anything else is wrong (of course it isn't, but they don't know any better). A Unix on the desktop must be able to cope with this sort of user. Right now, it really can't. : >then there are other people who actually *like* computers and even work : >with them for their living and then in their free time. these people : >should use computers, and many of them (like myself) love to use computers : >running unix. : Bad distinction IMHO. If microsoft provided me an environment I liked : to use I'd use it. But is has so many failings I simply cannot stand to : use it. Exactly. I *like* some of Win95's interface, and the MacOS has some nice conventions as well. I use my Mac at work all the time. Then, of course, I use my Linux box for anything to do with networking, and any "real" work that needs to get done. :) Windows and MacOS are too unreliable even for running Word! It crashes too often. : >i'm not sure if java and the web are right technological solution, but the : >concept i think is: have an interface that is simple to use and based on a : >metaphor like netscape navigator. people -- either at home, in schools, : >or at the office -- have something like these java-terminals which run : >netscape 5.0 or whatever that IS their "desktop". productivity apps are : >written in java and provided on a use-by-use basis or whatever by their : >ISP or whatever it is called in the future (probably off some FreeBSD or : >Linux box =). these client machines don't need to be setup any more than : >a TV set, don't run an OS that does much more than allow the JVM to run & : >the io for the cable-modem. and that's about it. : A question: what happens when the cable goes out? you now have a useless : piece of junk until the cable comes back. : The unit must be able to function standalone. So what? People are used to the power going out, the cable going out, water pipes breaking, etc. etc. As long as it didn't happen too often, they'll put up with it. The Internet isn't all that reliable anymore either... Although I agree completely that a really useful device should be able to operate independently (given an active wall socket) of other services, I don't think people would really care, as long as service wasn't denied very often. : >90% of the people who use computers would then use these simple terminals, : >and the other 10% of us who actually like computers and like understanding : >how they work, etc, will run free Unix. perfect world. : Nope. We still have to deal and interoperate with the other 90%. Exactly. Besides, I have a fundamental disagreement with the idea that we should allow people who want to use computers to remain stupid. You are required to take a firearms course before you use a gun. I honestly think that computers should be the same way. Issue licenses. That would be great revenue for local governments, too (not that I enjoy paying more money, but I'm trying to look at the bright side here). :) : >i think it's crazy to expect unix to take over the desktop. why in : >god's name should professors of english, secretaries, doctors, CEO's, : >etc etc learn unix? : Who said anything about learning Unix? This isn't about OS but applications. : Question: If there were a version of Microsoft Office for Free Unix and you : could get it for free how many folks would switch? Quite a few I belive. Exactly. Amen. Hallelujah. Agreed. Yes. : Very few Windows users understand how the OS works. And they could care less. : We can build a simple to use Unix box with an X-based desktop. The only : problem is that we don't have the application that the doctors, CEO, and : whotnot need to do the job they want to do. See above. :) : > if they like computers this much, they'd be CS ppl : >or programmers or whatever. i don't want to be in a world with that : >many computer geeks, as much as i love them and i am one myself. and : >who thinks this would happen, either? : So let me get this straight: : Unix = Computer Geek : Microsoft = Not Computer Geek : My wife is not a computer geek. However she uses Linux to get her work : done. How does she fit into this equation? Exactly. And what about all those non-computer-geek types who always wander into the computer labs that I administrate, sit down and use Windows and the Mac to their heart's content, but know *ZERO* about the actual machine. They are just following a known procedure to write a paper, get their E-mail etc. It's like using a car. You don't have to understand the engine to drive it somewhere. Not only that, but at least for Linux, the learning curve isn't much steeper than DOS/Windows if you've just bought your first machine. It's like the difference between an automatic and a manual transmission. While it'll be more work to learn to use the manual (Linux), it pays off in performance advantages over the automatic (MS). : >and as far as microsoft has the desktop -- who cares, the "desktop : >computer" was a stupid idea in the first place. : Why? It's a natural phase of computer evolution. Computers are continually : getting smaller, more powerful, and cheaper. Having one on the desktop : is inevatible. Hell, they have them for your *pocket* now! I mean *real* machines the size of a calculator! : Segregation is a bad idea. usually the minority in a segregated society gets : the short end of the stick. I see this happening here in the desktop. Any : offering that isn't Microsoft based is looked down upon. We need to be able : to interact with the 90%. All we need is the applications. We have the OS's : already. Bingo. One of the reasons I hate MS is because everyone has the idea that there's nothing else. Please. -------- If you can lead it to water and force it to drink, it isn't a horse. Got a Linux problem? Or can you help others solve them? Visit the Linux Common Problems page at http://vortex.cc.missouri.edu/~rhys/linux.html rhys@vortex.cc.missouri.edu