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#! rnews 4472 bsd Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!news.inap.net!news1!not-for-mail From: root@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dyson.iquest.net Message-ID: <4kford$fg@dyson.iquest.net> Sender: news@iquest.net (News Admin) Organization: John S. Dyson's Machine References: <4issad$h1o@nadine.teleport.com> <31657509.5E45C160@gnu.ai.mit.edu> <4k76gl$5s4@dyson.iquest.net> <316B4855.6383322@lucon.org> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:43:41 GMT Lines: 86 In article <316B4855.6383322@lucon.org>, H.J. Lu <hjl@lucon.org> wrote: >Charlie Root wrote: >> >> Most FreeBSD developers are (very) easy to work with. I strongly suggest > >Then why do you have so many xxxBSD? > Well, I don't know, other than the ones that I work with are really great. The people who are hard to get along with simply do not end up working with the FreeBSD team very long (or at all.) BTW, why is there Red Hat, Slakware, distributions of the Linux kernel? At least on BSD there are two prevailing philosophies -- one, a highly optimized OS, user friendly OS, and the other is an OS with a very strong multi-platform emphasis. Each borrows from the other, and it is very reasonable to have a FreeBSD/NetBSD shop because the OSes on the surface are very similar. > >> an open comment to the FreeBSD-current mailing list after you have started >> running it (it is very easy to get running, approx 1/2Hr of work.) You > >I have no plan to run an old a.out system on my machines. > Okay... I have no plan to run a broken or not well thought out ELF implementation as a primary development platform either. But I run ELF binaries on my system, hmm... On FreeBSD in isn't an all or nothing proposition. > >I am a big fan of shared library among other things. > FreeBSD has Sun-OS style shared libs. Linux didn't have a reasonable shared lib scheme at all until ELF. It was good that Linux finally did so -- the Linux a.out scheme was very broken, and a nightmare for developers. Many of the general problems solved by Linux going to ELF simply are not problems with FreeBSD's a.out format. There are some things that ELF can give us, but again, simply because the default binary format is not going to be ELF for a while (or forever), doesn't mean that ELF is not going to run or be supported?!??!?! BTW, what is the *default* binary format for Lites???? Hmmm??? > >C is not my main programming language. I usually write >in C++. With ELF, I can build a shared C++ library without >any ugly hacks. Dynamic load a shared C++ module also >works like a shared C module. With ELF, I can do so >many things I am doing right now and planning to do if I >have the time, which I don't think are feasible with a.out. > Ok, FreeBSD does have ELF support coming in, it is just not the standard format. Alot of work is being done for FreeBSD to have viable support for alternative ABIs... Refer to www.cdrom.com that runs Netscape (BSDI) server for example. Note also that FreeBSD-current can now run Linux ELF binaries with shared libs. To me it appears that FreeBSD IS getting ELF. > >> AFAIK, you will likely find people who would advocate your help in the FreeBSD >> project, if you give them a chance. > >I am just hoping to try out an ELF FreeBSD on my server. > Nothing is stopping you from doing so. The FreeBSD-current kernel supports ELF just as Linux (which is a kernel) supports ELF. I assumed that your inquiry was a bona-fide suggestion that you wanted to work with the FreeBSD development, but maybe I was just wrong? > >Maybe when FreeBSD finally goes ELF, if it ever does from >what I have seen here, I may have no reason to try FreeBSD >at all :-(. > Again FreeBSD does have ELF, it is just NOT the default format. With FreeBSD you have the best of both worlds. An extremely stable ABI that is going to be supported forever, and a forward looking ABI that will be evolve, and perhaps become the standard. There is opportunity here to do some interesting things, but it can be taken advantage of only if one takes it. Hmm, note that FreeBSD is a very dynamic system that can easily support and run both binary formats simultaneously. And can run a a.out utilities with perhaps an ELF development environment or vice-versa. John dyson@freebsd.org