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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc,comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Path: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!mail2news.alias.net!myriad!mylinuxbox!suck!netcom.com!stephenk From: stephenk@netcom.com (Stephen Knilans) Subject: Re: Why to not buy Matrox Millennium Message-ID: <stephenkDovrzv.E38@netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <4j3v64$1rq@virtech.aib.com> <4j7dg2$t3t@moacs11.moacs.indiv.nl.net> <4j8s8a$q8b@newstand.syr.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:21:30 GMT Lines: 103 Sender: stephenk@netcom23.netcom.com Xref: euryale.cc.adfa.oz.au comp.os.linux.development.apps:13646 comp.os.linux.development.system:19975 comp.os.linux.x:27574 comp.os.linux.hardware:34307 comp.os.linux.setup:47148 comp.unix.bsd.386bsd.misc:286 comp.unix.bsd.bsdi.misc:2774 comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc:2550 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:15978 In article <4j8s8a$q8b@newstand.syr.edu> melevitt@syr.edu writes: >On 26 Mar 1996 01:24:34 +0100, Waldi Ravens wrote: >>In article <4j3v64$1rq@virtech.aib.com>, >>David E. Wexelblat <dwex@aib.com> wrote: >>> In article <4j3muv$34m@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, >>> Marat Fayzullin <fms@wam.umd.edu> wrote: >>> >Take the existing drivers. Disassemble. Take a look. If they do not >>> >care about you, why should you care about their stinking industrial >>> >secrets? >>> >>> 1) It's illegal. > >>Boy, have I got news for you. Unlike you believe, USA laws do not aplly >>to the whole universe. They only apply to the USA. But most likely you >>wouldn't even know that other countries exist. > > This is not, contrary to what everyone seems to think, illegal. Even in the >US. It IS however, probably a violation of the license agreement that comes >with Matrox's drivers. It's not a criminal act. It may be actionable in >civil court though as a contractual violation. Have you heard of IMPLIED contracts, and a contract of merchantibility? What this says is that a card advertised to do a particular thing, or act a particular way, or advertised as being COMPATIBLE with such an item must be able to do that thing. If it doesn't, they COULD offer to pay their customers retail price for the card, to get out of it! As for the VGA core, etc.... I kind of assumed it was like DIAMONDS card which, although their tech told me it would work in normal VGA mode, and even run windows, it would NOT!!!! BUT, they customers didn't buy a low res VGA card, they bought the MATROX card based on its claims. So, they should say how to achieve those modes. > HOWEVER, as has been pointed out, you don't need to reverse engineer the >drivers! What would that get you anyway? We'd know how to write drivers for >Windows 95? No, what needs to be done is to figure out what code to use for >the hardware. We wouldn't be using any Matrox code and they don't have the >right to say you can't use their hardware in a specific way! It's a simple >black-box problem. For given input, what is the output? Have you ever TRIED what you suggest? Do you have any IDEA how many adressess would have to be checked? Some graphics cards have registers to registers, and you have to KNOW of their existence unless you want to spend 100s of years of research. With the program, it takes a few minutes/hours. > Look, you have to understand XFree86's position. They are trying to get >cooperation from various hardware manufacturers. The odds are, most of these >manufacturers won't make much money from Linux, relative to windows and dos. >So, I can understand XFree's desire to not piss anyone off. It makes it less >likely that other card makers will be cooperative. WHY CAN'T anyone understand this? MATROX doesn't make money from software by selling their card, but from HARDWARE! If it runs on linux(which means it can run under everything else), it WILL make them money, because more people will be willing to buy their card! I would NOT have bought diamonds card if I knew it wasn't compatible with windows or linux! > Matrox will come around the same way Diamond did. When I first installed >Linux, all the docs and howtos said don't bother trying to use a diamond card, >they won't work. Well, now they do. Pressure can be brought to bear on >Matrox, just as it was on Diamond. Start writting letters (paper ones) to >Matrox's president. Be polite and tell them how much money you would spend on >their products, if only their was support for it. > Think about all the Linux ISPs that I'm sure Matrox would want to sell >hardware too. Make the point that, yes you can use Xinside's server, but it's >just easier to buy a different card. Mention in the letter the other card you >will buy. > This is probably the best way to get them to open up. > Pressure was brought to bear in the SAME way people are now talking about matrox. This makes me ANGRY!!!!!! EVERY product I used to buy had FULL SCHEMATICS! OK, today chips are often proprietary, and user service wasn't all that likely! My first computer, an APPLE II, had a FULL BIOS source listing! EVERY product I got, until the first HP printer my company bought, came with instructions on USE! THAT is where I draw the line! I dn't buy a product to have it, but to have the **********USE********** of it! When I called HP, they kept asking me what software I was using! I keep telling them that DOESN'T MATTER! Should I tell them, RSTS/E, VMS, SCO, WINDOWS, DBL, MICROFOCUS COBOL, XXXXXXX, DOS, AIX, ETC...... NO, their printer takes the same commands REGARDLESS of the O/S or software. I keep telling them *I* am writing the software, and am often not using any system they have, or plan to have, drivers for. Yet they kept suggesting that I use wordperfect under windows with those drivers. FINALLY, they decide to sell me a $99 book! WHAT, I buy a printer TODAY for $1400 only to find I have to pay another $100 and wait several weeks? For you guys that suggest buying a book at a store, it was so new that there weren't any! It took me two weeks to get info that should have come with the printer, although I DID get it for free. Had I paid for it, I wouldn't have gotten it any faster! Steve