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From: Jon Jenkins <jenkinsj@ozy.dec.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Re: The Future of FreeBSD...
Date: 22 Jul 1995 23:16:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp
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Hi Marcus,
thanks for replying to my post.
marcus@ccelab.iastate.edu (Marcus I. Ryan) wrote:
>In article <3umkok$de2@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Jon Jenkins <jenkinsj@ozy.dec.com> wri
tes:
>>From: Jon Jenkins <jenkinsj@ozy.dec.com>
>>Subject: Re: The Future of FreeBSD...
>>Date: 20 Jul 1995 22:19:00 GMT
>
>>I wont reply to the detail of this post but I will give
>>a completely subjective opinion of what FreeBSD needs
>>to survive and propser:
>
>>(GUI GUI GUI GUI GUI GUI )^100000000000000000000000000000
>
>>We could all learn something from MS Windows success.
>
>What? Abandon ethics? Be a bully? MS-Windows is a success because of Bill
>Gates.
Well here we will just have to agree to disagree. See the very
last paragraph for some intresting info.
> If it weren't for his marketing and business skills, windows probably
>never would have done any better than other GUIs. I remember when Windows 3.0
>came out - there were at least 5 or 6 active GUIs on INTEL systems alone, all
>being sold in a similar fashion (preinstalled on the system at purchase).
>GUI is not why windows won.
Actually Windows/386 was the first and the compatilbility problems
killed the other efforts. I'm sure that this compatibilty problem
was not all by "accident".
>
>>An easy to use GUI X development tools ala Borlands Delphi
>>for Windows. This makes GUI development easy and quick.
>>Probably this would be based on Xview or Motif clone
>>maybe even Tcl/Tk but the next generation allowing users
>>to "drag n drop" user interfaces for X. This technology
>>is technically feasible with current tools and if done
>>properly would without a doubt become the industry
>>standard UNIX/X develpment tool.
>
>From http://www.shsu.edu/~stdyxc05/VXP/
>VXP -- Visual X windows Programming Interface
>
>VXP is an integrated Motif graphical user interface (GUI) builder.
>Application developer can build a working Motif GUI in minutes, simply by
>pointing and clicking on predefined icons which represent Motif widgets, then
>dragging and dropping them on the design space. VXP provides developer an
>environment to design a Motif GUI for your application interactively, and
>generates the C code required to producethe GUI. VXP also lets developer edit
>non-GUI code of the application, compile the application and test it...
>
>combined with LessTif
>(from http://www.cs.uidaho.edu:8000/hungry/microshaft/lesstif.html:
>
>LessTif is the Hungry Programmers' version of OSF/Motif. It will be source
>code compatible with Motif, meaning that the same source will compile with
>both libraries and work exactly the same.)
Well this would be a good start as long as it will work on the LessTif
base. Motif being a commercial and relatively expensive is not
a consideration for "FreeBSD" at least in my view.
>
>I'd say things are coming right along.
I'm hoping to get together (in the electronic sense) with Terry
Lambert to have a look at this area and we will certainly look
at this option. Interested in helping out ??
>
>
>>With this tool the basics i.e make it easy
>>to install with simple easy to use
>>graphical user interfaces for everthying from
>>network setup to system configuration to
>>file management to program development to ...,
>>are easy and simple to develop.
>
>The install is already easy - or at least as easy as the NT and
>OS/2 installations I've been through.
That could well be. I have not yet installed the 2.0.5 CD
that came the other day. What you say could certainly not be
said of the 2.0.0 release.
> There are already other X-Windows
>applications to do as you suggest. Though the ones I can think of off the top
>of my head are commercial, I'd be amazed if there weren't shareware ones out
>there somewhere...
The reason perhaps you cant think of them is that they are scarce!
How many Windows apps builders can you think of immediately ?
VB, MSC, BC++ and the first of the complete object orientated
paradigm generation and the best of all: Borlands Delphi
>
>>Once this happens the "hords" will take it form there
>>as they have with MS Windows and develop/port
>>all sorts of proggies to make life easier.
>
>Don't bet on it. Afterall, OS/2 has many of the same kinds of developement
>tools and it's still floundering (though it's catching up a little).
Did you know at last count that there are 10 million OS/2 users. Yes
thats correct. Most of them are in the commercial sector
so we dont hear the hype in the more academic world but
OS/2 has a very solid and fanatical user base. Dont be
surprised if OS/2 becomes a major player over the the next
few years. Did you know that OS/2 is being ported to
other workstation platforms ??
> As much
>as I hate to say it, what actually sells and operating system these days is
>hype.
Yes I agree with you here, Look at the advance orders
for Windows 95. Why would anybody in their right mind
order an operating system months even years ahead
of its first release? answer: hype!!
> OS/2 Warp managed to catch up by quite a bit, simply by including the
>Internet BonusPak. Do you think that "You on-ramp to the information
>superhighway" and "Enhances You Exisiting DOS and Windows(TM)" on the side of
>the box did nothing for sales? If FreeBSD had the resources to do the kind of
>advertising they have, I bet that FreeBSD would be much more popular.
Again I think we will have to disagree.
> As I
>recall, advertising - well, sort of - is what Jordan Hubbard was actually
>hired by Walnut Creek to do. His official description was more PR than
>advertising, but since we're not trying to sell FreeBSD, one is close enough
>to the other :)
Linux was never advertised and look at its poularity.
In Europe its user base is 10x that of FreeBSD.
>
>>Contrary to both opinions I dont think
>>FreeBSD needs to be bleeding edge to survive
>>in fact I think it would be its death nell
>>if all this "new technology" is introduced
>>without removing the archaic academic UNIX
>>philosophy "if it ain't hard to use it ain't
>>UNIX" which still pervades the UNIX mindset
>>of both academic and commercial thinking.
>
>UNIX is not any harder to use than DOS.
Whoa there, surely you jest! I wont go into a
diatribe here. Just compare setting up two simple
applications (forgetting all the nasty kernel configuration)
compare setting up Eudora Mail on Windows with /etc/sendmail.cf
on UNIX!!!! and then compare setting up a dot matix
printer in Windows versus printcap etc on UNIX: Nuff said.
> People talk about having to reconfig
>the kernel, and edit some files in /etc, but look at all of the time and
>tweaking it takes in DOS just to get some device drivers going,
I have never had a problem with this but I have
had plenty of problems setting up FreeBSD and I work
inside the kernel of OSF/1 and ULTRIX everyday!!
> let alone to
>get the thing on the network.
Windsock was trivial, perhaps a few minutes. /etc/hosts
/etc/hosts.conf, bind, NIS, SLIP, PPP, routing, device
slattach, etc etc .... There really is no comparison
> If you don't network it, there's that much less
>configuration. It all depends on what you want to do with it. FreeBSD is
>making it easier all of the time.
Yes I agree it is getting easier.
> Just don't expect them to sacrifice UNIX
>compatibility for "ease of use" (ls will always be ls, etc.) - it would defeat
>the purpose.
Who said anything about compromising compatibility. I said "add" functionality.
As for compatibility this is a joke in the UNIX world and always has been
POSIX or no POSIX.
As for "ls" well here is perfect example: if we had a good file manager
for X then "ls" would be available for your use if you wanted but
bascially obsolete for everyday use. Yes I do have xfm but we miss the point:
what should be done is a good toolset to develop xfm quickly and
efficiently via object based GUI builders. Lets say
I want to change to look of the filemanager window
in xfm without changing the functionality:
I have get in the code and hack several
thousand lines of code combined with an intricate
knowledge of X intrinsics. If it was developed with a
good object based GUI builder I wouold start that up
and "drag n drop" a few components, point the
event handlers at the backend functionality
and recompile and exit.
Which is exactly what I am saying:
If FreeBSD is to put effort into anything over the next few years
then a object based GUI builder app should be high on the list
of priorities.
Have a look at Borlands Delphi to see how a GUIs should be
built. With C++ and perhaps LessTif or the like there is
no technical bar to something similar for UNIX/X. I know
that SUN and perhaps SGI are already working on something
similar based on Tcl/Tk if rumour is correct.
Just as an interesting aside did you know
that the US goverment has accepted NT as an Open
System. If you dont get the significance of this
then it effectively allows NT to replace any
UNIX operating system in the Goverment services.
Two large military organisations (I'm not sure
I can tell you who so they will remain nameless)
have already announced they will swap from UNIX
to NT. You have got to ask yourself why ?
The answer was spelt out in one bid response:
NT is easy to use, maintain and configure
UNIX is not. The savings in system maintainence
and staff training as well as the plethora of
cheap effective applications were the
deciding factors.
This may be real flame bait so please please
please dont reply as this a a really really
really subjective opinion but here goes:
Unless the UNIX community gets together
and provides the common toolsets to develop
fast cheap GUI applications including
system admin and configuration and
mulitmedia in an object based paradigm
then I predict that within 10 years
UNIX will be relagated to
academic circles with NT and OS/2 being
the predominat OS for both Goverment and
commercial systems.
Jon
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Dr Jon Jenkins
Location: Digital Equipment Corp, NaC,
Burnett Place, Research Park,
Bond University, Gold Coast
QLD, AUSTRALIA 4229
Phone: 61-75-75-0151
Fax: 61-75-75-0100
Internet: jenkinsj@ozy.dec.com
Close Proximity: "HEY YOU !!!"
The opinions expressed above are entirely personal and do not
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