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From: Terry Lambert <terry@cs.weber.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.powerpc,comp.sys.intel,comp.unix.bsd,comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.misc,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.386bsd.development,comp.os.386bsd.misc,comp.os.misc
Subject: Re: X on dial-in
Date: 23 Jun 1995 18:32:10 GMT
Organization: Utah Valley State College, Orem, Utah
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <3sf1ba$6ss@park.uvsc.edu>
References: <3f44s2$jqm@maverick.maverick.tad.eds.com> <3s49a5$1988@news.doit.wisc.edu> <3sc1s5$67e@datamagic.com> <3sdgu2$5ii@park.uvsc.edu> <3seovd$a2s@datamagic.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hecate.artisoft.com
kanefsky@datamagic.com (Steve Kanefsky) wrote:
] >I have no idea why your ISP is bending you over. Perhaps he
] >doesn't have the volume to amortize the pipe cost because all
] >the other people had ISDN pushed on them. Or he just likes
] >bending you over. Or he's an idiot and hasn't run the numbers.
]
] The ISP charges much more per unit bandwidth for true dedicated lines than
] frame relay. How is that bending me over? When did I ever give any
] indication that frame relay was more than ISDN? My main point was that
] you can't compare what an ISP charges for a 24 hour/day dedicated line
] with routing to what they charge for an on-demand service without routing
] (or even worse, compare the ISP charges for ISDN to the telco charges
] for the ISDN line).
]
] Maybe you think that the $275-425/month for frame-relay is too much, but
] if you look at what it costs the ISP it's not really that bad. He has to
] pay for his T1 lines to the Internet, for the frame relay connection to
] his customers, for routers, for UNIX boxes and big disks to hold news and
] mail, for tech-support and system administrators, etc. Anyone who charges
] much less is probably overbooking their Internet bandwidth.
Ugh. Here we go again.
Most ISPs charge on the order of half of what Sprint charges
for a T1 for a 56k line (at least in this area).
In general ISP's, are making money hand-over-fist. I have checked
the password files on sites belonging to five internet providers
in the Bay Area (all of which have multiple points of presence),
several in Utah, and several in Arizona (and one in Colorado).
In each case, they all charges on the order of $17.50/month assuming
prepay (more otherwise) for a simple dialup account, and they all
had on the order of 3300 people in their passowrd files.
Throwing out 300 of those as system and freebie accounts (I'm
slating the numbers *down*), this is on the order of $600,000.00
a year.
Even assuming they had to buy all new equipment each year, the
number of lines and modems (assuming ~1:6 modem/user ratio), a
T1 to Sprint, and Sun and Cisco hardware (which most of them ran),
we are still talking $400,000.00 to go to profit and wages.
Now lets give them a huge building around their closet they need
to run, more employees than I have every had answeing my phone
calls, and backup hardware, also purchase per year.
They are still clearing around a quarter of a million.
Per point of presence.
Now why are the ISP costs so high?
To keep parity with their other bloated revenue sources.
What was my last quote from WestNet (which is Sprint) for Frame
Relay in Ogden Utah?
Ogden has (suprisingly) modern equipment. The cost for a T1
Frame Relay to the University of Utah (the WestNet access point),
the WestNet fees for a year is $250/month. This is everything,
including line and endpointing charges.
Add another $3000 for one-time setup costs: FR equipment, etc.
It very nearly convinced me to become an ISP; I would have had I
not gotten a new job and left the area. Unfortunately, the new
area I'm in is rather glutted with people with the same idea. I
expect the bottom to drop out as price wars hit anyway, and I
would not want to have to invest money in such a market after
the turnaround for ROI goes up by an order of magnitude.
To return to one of your statements above and respond:
] Maybe you think that the $275-425/month for frame-relay is too
] much, but if you look at what it costs the ISP it's not really
] that bad.
On the contrary; unless he's putting the packets in envelopes,
licking them himself, and hand delivering them, I think that
price is bending me over. Frame Relay, technically 64k, is
typically implemented 56k, mostly because of lack of 64k DSU's.
Going to your provider, I'm paying the same amount for on the
order of 1/20th of the pipeline size.
And yes, I'm well aware that WestNet is rather unique in that
it is run more as a utility than as a "what the market will
bear" business. And I am also aware that 1/20th the size is not
necessarily 1/20th of the cost. So say we split the difference
and I pay 1/10th instead... brings the old 56k net connection
down into the ol' cable TV range doesn't it?
I simply look forward to the day when the market saturates and
your ISP (and his greased broom handle) are killed off by their
competition. At the absolute least, he will have to clean off
the broom and put it back in the closet. 8-).
Terry Lambert
terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.