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Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!msunews!agate!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!helena.MT.net!nate From: nate@trout.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.netbsd.misc Subject: Re: Commerical OS's (was Re: aha0: DMA beyond end of ISA) Date: 7 May 1995 06:15:38 GMT Organization: SRI Intl. - Montana Operations Lines: 99 Message-ID: <3ohoia$829@helena.MT.net> References: <3o833b$9qe@anshar.shadow.net> <CGD.95May4181623@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU> <3oec67$93j@helena.mt.net> <3oh4ia$1m6@agate.berkeley.edu> Reply-To: "Nate Williams" <nate@sneezy.sri.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: trout.sri.mt.net [ I brought back a bit of the context of the subject ] Chris == Chris G. Demetriou <cgd@LAGAVULIN.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU> wrote: Nate == Nate Williams <nate@sneezy.sri.com> Jordan == Jordan Hubbar <jkh@violet.berkeley.edu. [ ISA, 16MB, and bounce buffers ] .... Chris>If people want things to be fixed, they should propose and Chris>implement fixes for them. Nate>This is *exactly* the reason why free OS's are *not* for the masses. Nate>Chris has *every* right to respond this way. No one who can fix the Nate>problem has taken the time to implement a fix, and those who want it Nate>can't do the fix. Jordan>However, I'd like to jump in here quickly and correct what Jordan>I believe to be a fundamental flaw in Nate's pat dismissal of free OS's, Jodan>and also to note what seems to be a _fundamental_ difference between Jordan>Chris's perspective with NetBSD and ours with FreeBSD ... [ Cheap shot deleted ] Jordan>It's certainly correct to say that the general ethos of free software Jordan>is "if you don't like it, fix it yourself" since there's nobody getting Jordan>paid to help you and it's all volunteer work. However, it's certainly Jordan>not correct to claim that this will always remain the case... It was never mentioned that this will always remain the case. I was speaking in terms of what it is today. If we lived in a perfect world then things would be different, but we don't live in a perfect world. Jordan>[ FreeBSD project isn't ] just in this for fun and good hacks, we Jordan>genuinely want to create a "product" that supports the largest Jordan>number of users and applications while providing fertile ground Jordan>for developers of all sorts to implement and test their ideas, Jordan>and all without having to pay anyone any money for the privilege Jordan>(or, in the case of a CDROM distribution, at least very little money). Bravo, and this is the reason I got involved early on as well. [ Discussion of 'why do a free OS' deleted for brevity ] Jordan>... addressing some of the problems that Nate indicates are Jordan>endemic to free software - lack of contractual tech support, poor Jordan>documentation and general wishy-washiness in release scheduling. [ Proposed solutions to the above problems ] > I'm not saying [ FreeBSD will ] be there tomorrow or even at all - > it's still too early on to say - but I'm certainly doing my best to > cause it to come about, as are a number of others. I applaud your efforts, and although I don't have the time nor the drive to see it happen my posting was certainly not intended to hamper that effort. >So forgive me if I react a little adversely when I hear folks say stuff >like "free software will never hold a candle to the commercial stuff - >there's no technical support." It's just nowhere near as accurate as >saying "free software doesn't YET hold a candle to the commercial stuff >given that there's no technical support YET." Agreed. And *when* that happens I will no longer claim that free OS's aren't for the masses. But until that happens I would never bet my job on something that 'might' happen. Money is an incredible motivator, and although it's does exist in free OS's circle, it's certainly no where near as plentiful as in the commercial arena. Because of the motivation, commercial OS's have the ability to add features/drivers which aren't as 'fun' to do but are commercial successes. Not everyone is as motivated to give things away as Jordan is or willing to sacrifice as much for the 'cause'. I certainly am not. >Give us a little credit for looking a few moves ahead and seeing what >might be wanted and possible, rather than just accepting these same >tired adages and giving up without a fight. Okay, let me rephrase my statement then. "As things stand today, there are no free OS's that I would recommend to the masses. There is work in progress to change the structure of many of the free OS's support systems which may change that though, so if you can afford to wait a while longer it may be worth it." >Contrary to the opening sentence of this posting, FreeBSD (at least) >most emphatically IS intended for mass consumption! I'll be glad to see it, and am doing my bit part to see it happen. Nate -- nate@FreeBSD.org | Research Engineer and part-time OS hacker. You got nate@sneezy.sri.com | problems, I got answers. ;-) work #: (406) 449-7662 | Loving life in God's country, the great state of home #: (406) 443-7063 | Montana.