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Xref: sserve comp.os.linux:35027 comp.os.386bsd.questions:1756 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux,comp.os.386bsd.questions Path: sserve!newshost.anu.edu.au!munnari.oz.au!news.Hawaii.Edu!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!att-out!cbnewsj!dwex From: dwex@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (david.e.wexelblat) Subject: Re: Summary of Linux vs. 386BSD vs. Commercial Unixes Organization: AT&T Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 19:58:55 GMT Message-ID: <C5qy6E.6HC@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> References: <1993Apr17.205715.11278@coe.montana.edu> <1993Apr17.231000.103368@zeus.calpoly.edu> <9304181046.aa28257@gate.demon.co.uk> Lines: 160 In article <9304181046.aa28257@gate.demon.co.uk> damian@centrix.demon.co.uk (damian) writes: > In article <1993Apr17.231000.103368@zeus.calpoly.edu> jemenake@trumpet.calpoly.edu (Joe Emenaker) writes: > > >Now, it really, Really, REALLY angers me to think of these big > >corporations taking public-domain and otherwise free software and > >distributing it as their own and actually getting money for it. How > >DEVOID of work-ethic does some have to be to pull a stunt like that? And > >you're saying that you're pleased as punch if DEC can just ftp a copy of > >386BSD and start selling it for $500/copy as DEC-BSD/PC or something?!?! > > I don't understand this. If someone decides to do some work and give the work away, and they put no restrictions on it, why should you care what people do with it? Using as an example the rather large FreeWare project that I am involved in (XFree86), we knew from the day we started it that people would likely commercialize some or all of it. It takes a lot of chutzpah to be in business. We didn't have the guts/desire/whatever to take the work commercial. We also didn't believe in putting restrictions that were completely unenforcable (from an economic, if not a legal, standpoint). We tell people "You can do whatever you want with this, except claim you wrote it. And we'd appreciate it if you gave us credit for the work we did." Why hang some rediculous requirements like the GPL on it, when we have no intention/desire/resources to enforce it? I know for a fact that there are several commercial ventures that are using some or all of XFree86. Many of these came to us ahead of time and said "Do you have any problems with our doing this?" Several have come to us after the fact and said "We did this. Do you mind?". I'm sure there are others who haven't bothered to talk to us. We in fact have a friendly relationship with all of these folks. One has contributed code back to the project. A couple of others may as well. If it doesn't bother us, who have put thousands of hours into it, why in the world does it bother you? > >That makes me ill. It really does. When I code stuff and release it to > >the public domain, I stipulate that the stuff is free and is free to > >modify, but ANYTHING that is derived from my code or that USES the > >binaries has to be free as well. I think that the GNU agreement is > >something similar to this. Now, if a company wants to charge for > >SUPPORT, or if they want to charge a media fee for distribution.... > >that's okay (SoftLanding does this.... as far as I can tell). > If you put something in the public domain, then you give up all rights to it. In fact, most of the software that people call "public domain" is actually in fact "Free Redistributable Copyrighted Software" (or some such nonsense). You can put any restriction you want on your code. And attempt to enforce it if you like. But if you really put it in the public domain, you have lost all control. Hence you have no right to bitch. > I have to agree with you here. > > Nate: > I can't see what your problem is in practice. Ok so you feel that public > software should be completely free from all restrictions, but > unfortunately this world is full of people who are happy to hoodwink > people and make a fast buck, by lying about who wrote the software and > not passing on that freedom. If you write software with no intention of commercial gain, and you enjoy what you are doing, why should you care what anyone else does with the software? If you put a copyright on the stuff, then you still own it. Unless someone tries to prevent you from doing what your are doing, it should have absolutely no impact on your life. > People who write public software only do it for one thing: to see their > name in lights. That might seem frivolous, but I believe it's true. So > if that is their only motivation, then don't allow the sharks to take > that away from them. After all, no motivation, no software. > Oh, bull cookies. We started XFree86 because we wanted to improve the performance of the X11R5 server. Then we expanded the project. Why do we do it? 1) We can add a lot of support for things that weren't supported before (e.g. 386BSD and Linux), and make it available to people who aren't going to be supported by the commercial ventures. 2) We can learn a hell of a lot about a lot of topics we'd never dealt with. 3) We enjoy it. My motivation for continuing with this is that I am still learning and still enjoying what I am doing. True, I have gained a fair measure of recognition from this work, and I appreciate that. But it was never my intention, nor does it have anything to do with why I continue. I would do this even without the recognition. FreeWare can coexist quite well with commercial alternatives. There is far more cooperation, good will, interaction, etc, between the XFree86 Core Team and the commercial "competitors" than most people are aware of. Largely because we realize where our niche in the market is. This is actually one of the most refreshing and gratifying things about the project - there is very little competition, just a lot of hard work and cooperation. > Us techie's know what we are doing, we know that we can get the latest > version of something from the net, other's are not connected, or are > not technical enough to realise that the software they have just bought > for mega bucks, is public software and that they have not been given > the source. The GPL protects the writer & the end user (often the > "little guys"). The GPL doesn't protect anyone unless they have the resources to try to enforce it. The GPL provides no more protection against copyright violation than any other copyright does. Perhaps FSF and LPF have the financial and legal muscle to try to enforce it. But the "little guy" doesn't. So why sweat it? If you're doing what you want to do, why do you care what someone else does? Various companies commercializing XFree86 isn't going to make us go away. People who want free X will still get it from us - if they were willing to pay for commercial packages, there are already several options available. Don't try to explain why we do what we do, if you have never done anything of the same scale. Don't tell us what should annoy/bother/offend/upset us - we are not stupid; we knew all of this going in. Don't tell us that we need to put rediculous, unenforcable restrictions on our code to protect some "rights" that aren't in jeopardy to start with. > > At the end of the day, I think that in practice, that there is no problem. > BSD386 is charge-free (except for a requested donation), GNU is > charge-free. I don't believe that BSD386 will ever be charged for, so > it will stay in the public software arena anyway, whether it is > forced to or not by the GPL. It's 386BSD, BTW, to which you refer. BSD/386 IS a commercial product. And your last statement is EXACTLY the point - why bother with superfluous things like the GPL when the software will remain free anyhow? > > Just a few ramblings > Damian > > -- > +----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+ > | Damian Ivereigh | If you can't suss out what this is replying to | > | damian@centrix.demon.co.uk | get a threaded news reader, like trn. :-) | > | Twickenham, U.K. | This is the best way to cut wasted traffic | > +----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+ Off my soapbox. Why is it that I now find myself preparing to be flamed by FSF and LPF zealots? -- David Wexelblat <dwex@mtgzfs3.att.com> (908) 957-5871 Fax: (908) 957-5627 AT&T Bell Laboratories, 200 Laurel Ave - 3F-428, Middletown, NJ 07748 XFree86 requests should be addressed to <xfree86@physics.su.oz.au> "Love is like oxygen. You get too much, you get too high. Not enough and you're gonna die." -- Sweet, Love Is Like Oxygen